Posts by Cold Steel

36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

Please read my posts sometime before you take your medications.

I'm saying that Jesus Christ may have indeed been married. I'm also saying that it's highly likely that God has a spouse. The word Elohim, used in the book of Genesis has God (plural, Gods) creating man in God's image, male and female. They said, "Man has become as one of us." The use of the family metaphor may be more than a metaphor. God is the "father" of Adam and Jesus. Jesus was the only Son of God born into mortality. If God is the father of all of our spirits, and we are his sons and daughters, the only missing element is a mother.

A metaphor of Father and Son is incomplete without there being a mother. I could be all wrong, but I'm saying that there's a lot we don't know. Why did God use the Father Metaphor if there's no mother? Read Margaret Barker's piece, referenced above.

We've gotten off the beaten path. That no one has added to the original discussion indicates that the return of Christ is not something taught according to the scriptures by the Jehovah's Witnesses. I wish one would just corner an elder sometime and ask him to explain how and where the return of Christ will be according to the scriptures. I predict the elder would simply shove an elbow in the person's ribs and say he has to go. They have no idea because it's not something the Watchtower has covered.

26

Nebuchadnezzar's Dream--The Death of His Dynasty

by Tiresias in

following my departure from the jehovah's witnesses, i have done my own research using preterism as a primary lens.

i would like to share my understanding of daniel chapter 2:.

31 "you looked, o king, and there before you stood a large statuean enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.

Cold Steel

Preterism is something that just doesn't pan out in my view. When it was probably written is based on the research of scholars who believe that prophecy is something that's written after the events take place and interpreted in that environment. Although Preterism is popular among a number of scholars, I find it untenable, personally, and believe it runs into a number of brick walls. In fact, one of my most frustrating email exchanges with a person of another belief system than myself was with a Preterist. Since they believe that all prophecies have been fulfilled, including the prophecies laid out in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation, they must go through a number of gyrations to find fulfillment of things not yet fulfilled.

As an example, both Jewish and Christian eschatology speak of a time when Judah, under attack from a coalition of its neighbors (a situation that could only occur now), suffers almost total defeat. But, at the last minute, the Messiah, or Yahweh, appears, saves the remaining Jews and destroys their enemy. As the Psalmist puts it: “They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee.” (Psalm 85)

This is something that’s happening now. Not even Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of wiping Israel out as a nation. The present-day neighbors of Israel do, however, and hardly a month goes by without a major call for Israel’s destruction. “Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;Assur also is joined with them: they have [lent their strength to] the children of Lot.”

Some may seek to find fulfillment in the massive attack of the Romans, which scattered Judah to all nations of the earth; however, the Romans were not Judah’s neighbors. When Ezekiel writes of this great despot that will come down on Judah, he specifically lays out what will happen:

After many days thou shalt be visited:in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that isbrought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates to take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

This is something that Preterism (and JW eschatology) is helpless to explain. Ezekiel calls him “Gog” and John calls him “the Beast.” This great force will move swiftly until it gets to Israel; then the power of God will be brought to bear. Ezekiel speaks directly to this man and tries to warn him, but he knows, like Pharaoh of old, that Gog will harden his heart. “And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.”

Some people think this portends the great battle at the end of the Millennium, but there are a number of reasons to believe this is not the case. First, it refers to an event in the “latter years,” or the latter days. Also, the Lord said to him, “Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?” The prophets have always spoken of the Antichrist that would come just before the Second Coming of Christ. The battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium will be seen as a mere continuation of rebellion against God. But the Gog of which Ezekiel writes is someone who comes to war against those who have been gathered from the nations and have returned to their promised ancestral homeland. The Gog at the end of the Millennium will try to again bring force against God’s people, but by then there will be no Jerusalem filled with Jews, and the battle’s duration will be very short. In the battle of which Ezekiel speaks, known to Christians as Armageddon, it will take place over a longer period of time. It will take seven years to burn the munitions and to bury Gog’s dead.

At the end of the Millennium, there will be no need to bury anyone, because they’ll be vaporized, judged and resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust.

More references relating to this time: Psalms 83, 85; Zechariah 12-14, Revelation 11, which also speaks of a new temple at Jerusalem and two prophets who will be raised up to battle the Beast and the False Prophet.

There are many prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled and many that are in the process of being fulfilled. Preterism sweeps all this under the rug and presses for exegeses that seek to find fulfillment in and before the coming of the Savior.

Zechariah explains exactly how the Second Coming of Christ will be, and it's completely different from how the Governing Body imagines it. It's also a completely unfulfilled (as yet) prophecy.

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36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

Designs: Cold Steel, take a course in Judaism, preferably from a local rabbi....

Hmmm...according to Jesus and many New Testament scholars, the rabbis are the last people you'd want to ask. They missed all the obvious signs that Jesus was the Messiah, and the only rabbis who knew anything technically about the Old Testament are long dead. Moses also never established the office of rabbi (an office Jesus held). They didn't hold the priesthood, so they are much like modern scholars and leaders with no real authority. And keep in mind that when Zachariah saw the angel in the temple, the Jews had not received a single revelation for more than four hundred years! That's how long they had been without a prophet. Jesus was a prophet, a high priest not after the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek; he was not only the Son of the Father, but the incarnation of Yahweh, the great mediator between the Father and mankind.

So what could a rabbi tell me about Judaism? As I indicated, the Jews with be converted at the time of the Second Coming. I don't mean to put them down, but they have no access to information that everyone else does. Even so, I'd probably take such a course if there was one. The rabbis I've known not only are educated, they have great senses of humor.

36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

Viviane: He had no wife, no girlfriend, traveled around in a dress with 12 other dudes and had a flair for the dramatic.

Actually, you may be incorrect on every single one of these assertions. His wife may have been Mary Magdalen, at least according to one ancient document (photo below) in which Jesus refers to Mary as his "spouse." Even though this is the only document using the term in that context, there are many other extra-biblical accounts where Jesus certainly treats Mary as a wife. Another document says that Jesus kissed Mary on the mouth, while other documents show tension among Jesus' own apostles, relating that they were jealous that Jesus shared the mysteries of the Kingdom more freely with her than with them.

It's also well attested that Jesus had a number of female followers. His close knit group often caused the Romans and others to refer to early Christianity as a cult. Christians see Jesus as the Messiah, and the head of an actual church (the word is used repeatedly in the New Testament). But historians such as Pliny always saw Jesus as we see David Koresch. But as the church grew and began spreading, Jesus was seen as simply another manifestation of the One God, and the notion of Jesus being married was as completely unthinkable as the Father being married. But where was there ever a father without a mother? Or a son without both? Why would God use the "Father" and "Son" metaphors if those metaphors were incomplete. The early Jews, before Josiah's reforms, worshipped both a male and female version of God. (Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has written about this as well as the early Hebrew belief that Yahweh was a son of the Father-God, and was not the Father.) Her book, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God is described as:

What did "Son of God," "Messiah," and "Lord," mean to the first Christians when they used these words to describe their beliefs about Jesus? In this book Margaret Barker explores the possibility that, in the expectations and traditions of first-century Palestine, these titles belonged together, and that the first Christians fit Jesus' identity into an existing pattern of belief. She claims that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic and that the roots of Christian Trinitarian theology lie in a pre-Christian Palestinian belief about angels--a belief derived from the ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a "High God" and several "Sons of God." Yahweh was a son of God, manifested on earth in human form as an angel or in the Davidic King. Jesus was a manifestation of Yahweh, and was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah, and Lord. Barker relies on canonical and deutero-canonical works and literature from Qumran and rabbinic sources to present her thoughtful investigation.

If the concept of an apostasy is true, it's likely that many things once believed and held holy would shock us today. Oh, and Jesus did not have a flair for the dramatic...just the opposite. Now, Moses, he had a flair for the dramatic!

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11

People Believe Jehovah Is A God Of Love Because He Is A Bully

by frankiespeakin in

yes the god of the bible has done his share of being a murderous bully(according to the mythology found in the book), his holly motto seems to be through out: "do what i say or i will kill you".

of coarse cringing christian's because of their fear of the deity will proclaim that all these acts of slaughter that the bible ascribes to god as an act of love, and chime in with approval and superlatives when 1john 4:8* is read.

and i atribute it mainly to god being a bully in the bible and threatening to kill every one not having faith in him.. 8 l anyone who does not love does not know god, because m god is love.. .

Cold Steel

God is not seen as a bully at all, but as a peacemaker. He is seen as just and merciful. Unlike the allah of Islam, He does not seek to remove one's free agency; at the same time, He is adamant about protecting the innocent and oppressed and bringing about righteousness as He defines it. The vast majority of Christians honor His judgment as they accept His Fatherhood.

One reason for this honor is that God is seen not only as omnipotent (something atheists seem to dwell on), but omniscient, or all knowing. God is just because He knows all things from the beginning. He knows what will promote good and righteous government and what will destroy it and mankind. Thus, He forbids evil and promotes goodness, decency, integrity, virtue and morality. Most of His critics know nothing about His judgments, yet He knows everything about both His and Ours. On the one hand, He recognizes the free agency of man; however, on the other, He will eventually draw the line. And when mankind, or pockets of mankind, become so evil that they become unable and unwilling to correct themselves, He will terminate their earthly existence (as is His right) and consign those destroyed to a temporary “penalty box,” where they can do no more harm. As history has shown us, righteous societies can become grossly wicked, but wicked societies are incapable of escaping the bonds of moral entropy without outside pressure.

We know that the Lord will not suffer murder, including abortions, neither will He tolerate the predilection of man to get power and gain at the expense of his fellow man. And, we’re told, unless He interferes with us during these last days, mankind would utterly destroy itself. Thus, He not only has the moral right, but the moral duty as our heavenly omnipotent and omniscient parent, to guide us as a parent would guide his children. We also know that when all the facts are in, we will, en masse, fully recognize His power over us and His righteousness to Judge.

Why does He have this power, or authority? Because He provided the plan of salvation by which we all, with but very few exceptions, will defeat Death. By His death on the cross (or beam, whatever), He became our Eternal Judge and will one day redeem us and present the sanctified Earth back to His Father. Before that, though, we will all bend the knee and confess with our mouths that He is our God and our Redeemer.

Atheists and naysayers criticize God for being a celestial bully and busybody, but His criticisms of us are that we are narrow-minded, arrogant, ignorant, bigoted and unreasonably rebellious. We judge before knowing and we put entirely too much faith in the weakness and foibles of man before the sure knowledge, justice, mercy and generosity of the God who gave us life.

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36

Where Will Jesus Come When He Comes?

by Cold Steel in

according to both christian and jewish eschatology, the messiah will come to jerusalem, where he will deliver the jews from hostile nations "round about.

"since the jehovah's witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.. first we have a christian declaration:.

and when [jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Cold Steel

According to both Christian and Jewish eschatology, the Messiah will come to Jerusalem, where he will deliver the Jews from hostile nations "round about."Since the Jehovah's Witnesses and other adventists don't believe his coming will be literally fulfilled, but figuratively fulfilled, they simply believe he will return to the earth, where he will slay the wicked and the righteous will be caught up to meet him in the air.

First we have a Christian declaration:

And when [Jesus] had spoken these things, while [the apostles] beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. And they said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. T hen returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey . (Acts 1)

Here Jesus is taken into a cloud, similar to the way Aaron, then later, Moses, were taken up. But the angels told the apostles that Jesus would appear "in like manner" as "ye have seen him go into heaven." And finally, he ascended from the Mount of Olives.

The Jews believe he will descend to the Mount of Olives from the clouds:

Then shallthe Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle . And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye [of Judah] shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and theLord my Godshall come, and all the saints with thee.

Note, too, that the ancient Jewish scriptures recognized Jehovah as being Christ, not Christ being Michael. This is backed up scripturally by John in the book of Revelation:

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood , and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In both the ancient Jewish scriptures, it is Jehovah who will come to judge the nations. And it is Jehovah who will come with the clouds of heaven with the saints to mete out justice and to destroy the enemies of Judah. Both Jehovah and Jesus (being the same) are used in fulfillment of the Messiah's Second Coming. Neither one is the Father, for both Jehovah and Jesus are seen as the great Mediator between the Father and man.

The Christian scriptures reinforce the Jewish scriptures in that both Christians and Jews saw Jesus/Jehovah returning to save the Jews from certain destruction. The Christians saw Jesus as returning to save (and convert) Judah at the conclusion of Armageddon. The Jews saw Jehovah as being the Savior, but as Zechariah wrote, Yahweh would come to rescue Judah from a great military power who would otherwise destroy them. Likewise, the Christians saw Jesus as coming to rescue Judah from a great military power who would otherwise destroy them. Ezekiel called this great evil "Gog" and Isaiah called him "the Assyrian." John, in Revelation, calls him the "Beast."

The overwhelming number of Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea how their latter-day eschatology differs from that of the scriptures. But if they're to reject the Bible, just who do they expect to come, Jehovah or Jesus? And if not in Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives, as the Bible foretells, just where do they expect either Jesus or Jehovah to descend? Or will he suddenly appear at a weekly meeting of the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

The leadership of the Society has so rewritten what Armageddon is that virtually no JW I've ever met knows the biblical version. I've read a Watchtower that showed a destructive ball of fire and ARMAGEDDON! was printed across it. I read every word of the article, but nowhere in that article was the biblical take on Armageddon outlined or how, exactly, the Society had changed it. I thus take it that when someone wishes to learn about such topics, they go directly to the Society's magazines and skip the Bible. Back in the 70s, I found that many of the Jehovah's Witnesses read the Bible and could explain it from their point of view. Now, however, they don't seem to read it much.

So what are their expectations regarding the coming of Jesus nowadays? Do they believe he'll come with Jehovah or that only Jehovah will appear?

8

Early christians : Were they chosen ?, if so, what about those who were not?

by opusdei1972 in

it is a hard task to understand what christ and early christians had in mind.

but i noted that in the gospels appears the word "elect" (greek eklektos).

it seems that early christians thought that they were chosen by god.

Cold Steel

The Greeks, of whom Paul was very fond, knew quite well that the earth was not flat. Paul also was very educated and fierce in his condemnation of the Christians (at least he was before his vision). Christianity was never intended to replace the House of Israel, he maintained, for he knew that at the conclusion of the great battle of Armageddon, the Jews would be converted (see Zechariah 12-14) when Jesus/Yahweh returned and his feet would stand on the Mount of Olives. The Jews, seeing the wounds in his hands/feet, would instantly realize his identity and go into a national state of mourning.

The early Christian authorities also knew that this salvation would NOT come in the days of the Roman siege, but would occur after the destruction and dispersal of the Jews and after their return to the lands of their fathers in the future. This return is still in progress and the great battle of Armageddon (Gog and Magog) still in the future. There also are traditions recorded by Origen, who writes: "Clement, the disciple of the Apostles, recalls those whom the Greeks designate as antichthonians, (dwellers on the other side of the earth), and other parts of the earth's sphere (or circuit) which cannot be reached by anyone from our regions, and from which none of the inhabitants dwelling there is able to get to us."

This is often how we know, or surmise, what was known and taught by the early saints -- we find out by what is passed on. Clement was a good friend and disciple of Peter, the chief apostle. In trying to find out everything that was known to them, the early church fathers felt they could preserve the church in as pure a form as possible. Thus, there's a wealth of information that tells us that the apostles did not expect the imminent return of Jesus, and that they didn't believe the earth was flat. They knew about the apostasy, the destruction of the temple and they understood it was to be rebuilt in the last days and that the Jews would ultimately accept Jesus Christ.

17

If the Bible stated "God created man in heaven and placed him in the garden".

by jam in

what would think???

later he sent eve to earth....

Cold Steel

Ha, I knew someone would bring up the Mormons! But the only official teaching of the LDS faith is that man and all other forms of life were created spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. In other words, the idea that man is created in the womb or "sleeps" at death is rejected. Whether Adam was brought to the earth and not formed on it is speculation. But that Adam's spirit was placed within him is not.

24

Jesus 1000 years and Satan's 1000 years in the abyss

by berrygerry in

the thread about satan in the abyss for 1000 years prompts a question.. jesus will rule for 1000 years.. jesus began ruling in 1914, which means his 1000 year reign will end in 2914.. satan will be abyssed for 1000 years.. if the end comes in 2020, satan will be abyssed in 2020, and then released in 3020.. what happens between 2914 and 3020?.

honest question..

Cold Steel

I think the thousand-year reign begins after Armageddon and after Satan is locked up in the abyss. With no one to lead mankind astray, the people and animals will all live in peace and harmony. That means the Millennium. At the end thereof, Satan is released, he stirs up the wicked, there's a brief battle of Gog and Magog, then all of Jehovah's enemies and Satan, himself, will be destroyed. The other thread related to whether Satan was alive or dead (meaning existent or nonexistent) during the thousand years.

Conventional Christian exegesis is divided between, generally, those who believe in literal prophecy and those who believe in replacement theology. JWs tend to go for the latter. Funny, they believe in literal prophecy up to a point, then, suddenly, it's all spiritualized. Nothing means what it says. And the Governing Body gets to determine what the prophecy means.

8

Questions From Readers (w69, 2/15):Will Satan be dead in the Abyss ?

by raymond frantz in

another gem from the watchtower 1969 , back in those days the watchtower was engaged in the bible research to prove satan's actual condition in the abyss .

enjoy .... will satan be dead when he is in the abyss for one thousand years?.

Cold Steel

Jam: Why in the hell would anyone choose to follow Satan?

Hatred. Hatred even trumps the sense of self preservation.

During the battle of Armageddon, the prophets state that those nations surrounding Israel will be so enveloped in hate, that when Jesus returns, many of Israel's [Muslim] enemies will fight him. As we can see now, they have a seething, undying hatred of the Jews. Eventually, they will come down on Jerusalem to take the holy city (see Ezekiel 38-39), and the Lord actually speaks to Gog as though he were present. Zechariah even indicates that some of Judah's neighbors, after the return of the Messiah, will refuse to come to Jerusalem to partake in the feast of the tabernacles. He specifically mentions Egypt (see Zechariah 12-14). The Muslim mindset that the Quran is God's book and Muhammad his prophet is so strong that even when Jesus appears on the Mount of Olives and saves their enemies, the Jews, they are not going to be converted; rather, they're going to be filled with hatred. They won't take it kindly that the religion they believed in, fought and died for, and the god of their fathers -- all was a sham.

But this is exactly what the prophets said is going to happen. How did they know Judah was going to return to its ancestral homeland, and that its sworn enemies would be their neighbors? Why has Israel managed to miraculously survive two massive attacks where, logistically, it should have been destroyed? The Lord said he would, in our day, make Jerusalem a "burdensome stone" to all who set themselves against it. He said Judah would return and make the land a garden, which has happened. Anyway, Islam has not shown itself to be the religion of peace. And they have so come to hate Israel and the Jews that when the Lord returns, they will want no part of him.